• Work, work:
  Staging dislocation in artistic
  and non artistic labour

Interviews with participants Anonymous Work Group 1-6 (transcript)

Interview #3

1: I’ll start the recording now, and then I will tell you how we’re going to do this…
2: Ok.
1: …or what I suggest we do. It’s been the same with each one of you. I ask a question about biography, or life story, instead of asking directly about the group or… And after a while one may see how, in a context. And talk about experience, maybe… be a part of the group and… Tell about how it’s all been, before you knew about the group, and how the experience has been. It may seem a little challenging, because I’ll only ask that one question. And I will take notes, but I won’t interrupt you at all. And you must tell it in your own time. You can, like, it shouldn’t be like, “And then this happened, and this, and this, and that.” You can jump back and forth in time, and just talk about the things you find relevant. And when you’re done, we’ll look at the notes, and I’ll probably have some follow-up questions. And I’ll ask the questions chronologically according to the story you have told. So, that’s a technique I want to use in the reflection part as well, like a biographic, narrative… And there are many ways to study the material when you listen to it afterwards, so pretty fascinating, often. Considering that it is so open… So it’s essential that you’re not disturbed. And if you accept this, we can try, and if you think it’s difficult, we can find another way, more like a standard interview. But I think it’s interesting to try, and it’s just fine if you want to take long breaks. I really think that is a good thing, so you won’t feel like you have to deliver something interesting all the time, just take your time.
2: Well, people are different, so one will certainly react differently to things like that, to an open question like that.
1: So, you accept.
2: I do.
1: Then I suggest we begin. And, as you know, I ask each one of the participants about their experience, or experiences, and how they relate to their whole life, really. But of course …. (?? 03:40) So, like a said, I won’t interrupt you. I’m ready to hear your story.
1: I’m known for talking a lot, so I will try to make it short. But… I want to relate it to the reason I’m here. And… if I shall begin with now, or why I chose to be part of this group, it all has to do with both my work and my education. And I chose this because I am who I am and how I’ve become who I am, it has been influenced a lot. Ever since I was a child I guess. How you approach others, how you approach the world, how you observe and how you relate to it. Both the ability to go into things, and to delve deeply into things, but also maybe the need to protect oneself, the opinions of others, and one’s own opinions, a little bit one’s own reactions. I mean… to get that space. For reflection. I often have the need to withdraw myself. Especially if things get very intense. No matter if it gives me a lot or if it demands a lot of me, when I don’t feel that I get much in return. Almost no matter what, I’ve always had the need for time to myself, or time by myself. And I’ve always been like that.
My main education, I have an education as preschool teacher, and that education opened up a lot for me, I think. It wasn’t really what I thought I would become, but I saw so many opportunities in that education, and I really liked it. You meet a lot of different people, you work in teams, you relate to children, and you must have time. And then one sort of chooses what becomes one’s identity as an adult by how you relate to children. And that gave me a lot. An opportunity like that. To experience and reflect. But there are a lot of other aspects of that job. That are difficult to protect oneself from. But that’s not really important in this context. But after a while, I had to do something different, out of consideration for myself. And that was simply to work at the culture administration. One transfers within the same business. And I found many connections, but a need to learn more. And that study in art procurement also gave me a lot of words… I mean, not just the part based on experience, which was a part of the preschool teacher education. It sort of became an extension. But it opened up a much larger room. And a need for change like this is often connected to milestones in life. And this became really important to me. And even if I use a lot of words… I… I’ve always had an intuitive approach, and that can be a problem, or a challenge when you relate to theory……..
And then it’s the same thing all over again. That need for distance, need for space to reflect and also a need to accept the things I experience and a need to explain it. And I feel that I’m getting closer to something.. That what I’ve experienced is a part of something else, and this triggers a lot of things. The kind of things that you will be able to look into in an educational situation or when something is new. And then it often disappears if you don’t make sure to get a refill. That part. And that… that experience I had when I saw the ad was: “Is this possible? Does a group like this exist?” And then I felt that I had to be a part of it. And I think that… this process, but also if you think of the meetings just as isolated events, because we have in a way been a part of something without seeing the big picture of it. I mean, we know that this is a part of something bigger. That has actually been a little liberating. But at the same time binding. But to be able to go in and out of one’s own thoughts, and… like it can sort of pop up in many situations. Things we’ve done in the group, conversations we’ve had, the exhibitions we’ve seen can sort of pop up and become part of something. So I’ve sort of been thinking that I’ve done this for myself……
And in addition to the more personal processes that I’ve just been talking about, this has of course also been about art. But… perhaps not about the art in itself, but rather processes deriving from it… and that… Well, like the advertisement said, it’s about the role of the spectator, which is the role I have when it comes to art. And then it has to do with my interaction with art. For myself, but also because I work with art and culture. It is also something that I’m interested in bringing forth when I’m in touch with it, also at work. And to experience art with others……………
And I had a really strong experience at the exhibition in Prague, where I experienced that I had… it was especially the pictures and the stories in the second room. That I’d experienced it before. And that’s the kind of experiences one can have with art when you get attached to the work of art or open up to it. It can put certain processes into motion. That you may never find an answer to, but that are very, very important……………….
And I think that we have shared a lot of very… private moments in the group, through the things that you have made us do. I mean, the way you have, umm… challenged us, that both… both when I think of… I mean, the different meetings we’ve had, and what we’ve done, but also everything as a whole. I mean, which part of the bigger picture it is, and that… To me it’s a search that never comes to an end. It doesn’t need to be answered, but it’s really, really important to… It is important to have.…………. Ok, I think I will stop now.
1: I’m just going to take a look at the notes and see if there are any questions. So if you have anything else to say, that comes to mind, feel free to talk about it..
2: M-hm.
………………
1: I’ve got some questions.
2: I guess you do. (laughing)
1: Ok, you said that you are known for talking a lot. Can you remember any specific situation where you talk a lot?
2: Um… I’ve often been told in school that I talk a lot… and… I just thought about it now when I was done talking, that I’ve probably said things that can seem self-contradictory. I guess I haven’t really, well yes, I have said that I need time to myself. Um.. and sometimes I withdraw myself so much that I completely disappear. And then I don’t say anything. So I’m a little bit like, I’m a little bit on and off. Um.. and that…… and then when I was told that I was dominating others I thought, “How can they say that?” Um… When you think of all the times I haven’t said anything. Well, I found it strange. But I do know that I’m like that. I use many, many words, and I talk out loud when I’m thinking, but other times I can be quiet as a mouse…. I’ve just been told this many times. Like, “You’ve got to let the others get a chance.” So that… that is – and I don’t doubt that they’re right.…… It’s just when I get eager….
1: Enthusiastic?
2: Yes. Yes… and if I’m going to mention a time, then I think I was made aware of it in school. Primary and lower secondary school.
1: When you were a pupil.
2: Yes.
1: Ok, shall we move on?
2: M-hm.
1: You said that when it comes to job and education and that you’ve become who you are, that one approaches the world. Again, is there any particular description that… When you talk about approaching the world, can you describe, do you remember anything in particular….?

2: Related to the two… educations?
1: Yes, or that you… um… become who you are and approach the world and make choices concerning the education and that you grow up… but it’s interesting just to go back to that part about approaching the world connected to the ability to delve deeply into things. Is there anything in particular you have in mind?
2: Yes, it’s a little bit about the opportunity to openness. Like, a little bit like large… large rooms. Um.. really. Um… if you, um… in nursery school for instance, with preschool children, you don’t have these curriculums and demands. You’ve got a lot of time. You can sort of dwell on things, you can have peace and quiet, you’ve got great variations. There’s no busy time schedule, at least not compared to the time schedules in school. There’s something about that.. And I did see it… I didn’t see it like that in hindsight only, but also when I was there. That it suited me, um… really well. That you don’t need to finish everything. You can take it with you, and bring it back up again later, and you can change plans because it’s more important to pursue what you are.. It could be a conversation, an… an activity, a completely normal activity, or something that just happened. That turned out to be more important than the other things you had in mind.…………..
And that… that has been important to me. Also when it comes to art. That it is more important to… have time for that reflection rather than seeing everything in an exhibition for instance. And to be able to open up, and thus learn more… It is about commitment. Both. And also having the possibility to be in it. But build on it. So that all the experiences build on each other. So much of it conjures up associations. To me it is all connected, though it may not seem that way from the outside. But to me it makes sense, and may be some of the same…
1: You said that it also has to do with protecting oneself from impressions and from other opinions, and also from one’s own reactions. About protecting oneself from own reactions. A little bit interesting… could you talk some more about that?
2: Yes… there are some things I avoid. And I’m well aware of this. It can be something as commonplace as a horror movie. No matter how good it is, how high its artistic quality is, I just choose to disregard it. I choose not to bungee jump. Well, I choose… now I’m just mentioning the obvious things, but this can also apply to more ordinary things as well, I guess. That there are quite a few things. I just think that I don’t have to do everything.
1: No, because it’s like, “If I do it, I will react in this or that way,” so you already know –
2: – Yes, well I know that it is connected to something that causes me so much discomfort. So then I don’t see any reason to overcome it. I mean, there are a lot of other things that are more important to overcome in myself, than to challenge and sort of expand a room that I don’t have any motivation to go… into.
1: I will continue.
2: M-hm.
1: You have an education as a preschool teacher, and that job, or that education opened up a lot for you.
2: Yes, reflection. Room for reflection. Oh… I just kicked that, Um… yeah. It is a pretty… yes, it did. Well, both the working method and the subject areas you went into, and the way you did it. It is, there was a theoretical part, and also a great deal of methodology. Both as a separate subject, but also as a part of the theoretical subjects. And there was a lot of practice. So you got to try things out, um… on the way. So everything from arts and crafts activities to interaction and play…………
1: So one chooses what becomes one’s identity as a grown-up while relating to children.
2: Yes. Yeah, that sounds a little bit high-flown, but I wanted to be a conversation partner. I didn’t want to be an organizer. I didn’t want to be the one that made it my highest goal to teach them how to tie their shoelaces and behave properly, and well…. Lot of approaches to….to working as a preschool teacher. Um… and I worked as a leader, and then I was actually interested in that – of course you must form a team, there are things that need to be done, but it’s much more important to find your strength and use it. That it is important also for those who work in the preschool to be able to…. pass it on.………… So like, my choice was that I realized that, “This is an opportunity, I have a choice, I choose” …. And that, that has been important to me. Later on………
1: Afterwards, you work in the culture administration.
2: M-hm.
1: And a study in art procurement, not only based on experiences, but a larger room opens up. I thought we could talk some more about this extended room, or larger room.
2: M-hm.. first of all it was about me intensifying my interaction with art. I went to a lot more exhibitions than what I would’ve done earlier. And… and I felt it had more purpose, because of the assignments we had. Observational assignments of galleries through both larger and smaller, connected to assignments. And it had to do with …a little bit about finding ways to express what I’d experienced. And maybe also to understand my approach to art as well, and to be able to expand it. Not only that it became a personal experience, but also that it became a way of perception and maybe also, well, more knowledge, quite simply … And also, so the main assignment, it was a group assignment that we wrote, it wasn’t connected to preschool but school. This L97 that had just been introduced. So then I also saw some connections between the values of the preschool pedagogy and art procurement.………………..
1: You mentioned this expanded room, need for changes in life, it became important to you, even if you use a lot of words, it’s often an intuitive approach to theory, and that it was the same again, need for distance, room for reflection and acceptance, about experience. Perhaps it’s a matter of an intuitive approach and an.. –
2: – Analytical. Yes. They are often juxtaposed. For me, the experience always comes first. Perhaps not entirely… but the experience always comes first. Um… it’s about… about… it’s about what sort of becomes the main expression. Because I do have a theoretic background as well, but I’m not that interested in pigeonholing before filling in the experiences. I sort of want a pile, and then I will extract from this pile my whole life. I mean, I’ve always really liked going to school, I’ve always really liked gaining new knowledge. I’m systematic and interested in theory, but I’m not so interested in knowing it. What I bring with me into the world, is the intuition… And it’s not that I’ve chosen to, but it has to do with what triggers something in me….
1: One more question. When you saw the ad, and you thought, “Does a group like this exist, is it possible.” Could you say some more about this moment, or…
2: I can.
1: …on what happened.
2: I had just sold the house, and moved into a smaller apartment. Suddenly I didn’t have any children living at home anymore. I had no leisure activities. I was sort of uprooted from, well, nothing dramatic and tremendous. But still, I didn’t know any of my neighbors, and I just felt that I needed something. And then I open a paper, just like, “Oh.” And my first reaction was connected to the study. It was, um… it was the last thing I would’ve chosen for myself as, like a self-development project. So the timing was quite special. And I didn’t, well, I would’ve thought that it was more likely for me to find a choir, or another activity like that. And it was a little ambiguous. But all of the words in the advertisement just spoke to me. And of course that it was part of a PhD program. That it was..
1: It didn’t say anything about..
2: No, it didn’t say so in the ad, but in the email. The reply. Yeah…………. And then it was a little. It was also a little exciting, that it was somewhat diffuse. But there was enough there to make me want to join.
1: Do you remember what happened next?
2: …Um… I remember thinking, “Is this a little bit scary?” Um… and then I thought a lot about anonymity. I thought maybe I should create a new obscure Hotmail account, so that I sort of… and then I thought, “No.” And I didn’t tell anyone about it. Not until after the first meeting, I think…. And it was quite exciting. And I thought of everything from the possibility that I could very likely meet someone I knew. Which I did. So……… and then when I was in this group, I became almost just as curious about how this would all turn out. Like, because this group, as it has been now in the end, no one of them was part of the first group I attended in the very beginning, right?
1: Maybe not.
2: Maybe…
1: There were two days, and maybe 10-12 each day, so it’s possible.
2: Yes… but Stig (some last name 46:00) was there the first time. Yeah, so he was there from the very beginning. But other than that, no one else were at the…. Maybe Pia? I can’t quite remember. Because then there was an intermission, since you had two groups for a while. And I was in one of them, and they all disappeared. But then some of them sort of materialized. And in the end, there was only one group, and possibly someone that you met who weren’t part of the group, isn’t that right?
1: Yeah, possibly.
2: Because, there aren’t groups anymore are there?
1: No.
2: Because some of them were present only a few times, and then they disappeared, and… I do think that it has been.. We are really different. At least that’s how I see it. All of us in the group, so that certain group… That’s also been a nice experience, I think. Just to be part of something like this. And, like, do something together and just go our separate ways afterwards, and then meet again. And we were given directions. We don’t decide what’s going to happen ourselves. That’s also been nice.………
1: You mentioned that the meetings in a way were isolated events, but at the same time part of something bigger. Perhaps a little liberating, but also binding.
2: Yes, well, I thought that if I was going to be a part of this, I had to be a part of it. So I can’t be questioning the things that you make us do. And I thought that I should either go along with your terms, or don’t do it at all. Um… I’m sure there are things we said, that might have affected you in one way or another. But… for the entire first year, I never felt that I knew. Or, it’s actually never been like that. But… but after a while one got a certain notion. But a lot of the things we did, we only did them once. And then we did something completely different the next time. And you could see the bigger picture, while we just did the assignments you gave us. If it was a lump of clay, or stockings over the head, or…. words, pictures that we shared.…….
1: You said that things from the group appear in other situations, have you…
2: Yes, things. Well, I don’t really have specific examples, but things we’ve done and talked about. Like, I quickly get associations, and I feel that I’m tying up some of the loose ends. It has become an important thing, because some of it is a little bit like, I still don’t get it, but I feel that it’s something I want. And we don’t always continue with it directly in group, but then I might realize that we are continuing with it, but in different way. Or situations can remind me of the challenges we’ve been given here. And one can think that you may not always realize just what you’ve been a part of until you come across it again in another situation. Perhaps that is more important than getting the explanation of why we do things.
And… that experience with the exhibition in Prague. Because there were so many things there. Things we did, things we saw, things we heard. There were things, it was that conversation… It comes to mind quite often. It can be just like a flash. I was looking at, it was some map drawings out in that hall, in the second room. Then suddenly I visualized those pictures/photos/portraits (bilder). And I could swear that I’d seen them before (laughing), that it was part of a movie. That I’d seen these texts. And I’m 100% sure that I’ve seen that movie. And, Oh, yeah, there was actually yet another piece of art there….
— Interview gets interrupted —
Um… yeah, there was a cartoon in the next room, that suddenly made me think of that description of that man. Um… that circles the advertisements. In my head………. Maybe it was a movie? Maybe I have, maybe it’s a dream? Yes? I don’t know.
1: Maybe the guy that wrote it, the one that we’ve been cooperating with, maybe he got it from a movie?
2: Maybe?
1: It’s possible.
2: No, but the funny thing is that it was all of it, the pictures/photos/portraits as well. And they were made by Gråseva ?? (53:00), weren’t they?
1: Yes.
2: Yeah? And that was something entirely different. But, well, that’s how things can make sense. And art is a very liberating way of making sense. Well, I mean like a spectator. It also opens up.. very big opportunities.………. Yes. That, that’s how it can be. Conversations we’ve had. Suddenly I can think, “Oh, but this is exactly what we talked about.” That’s been very relevant. To me.
1: Yes, you said that it’s about personal processes. About art. And that’s along the lines of what you’re saying now.
2: M-hm…………
1: You said, like the advertisement said, the role of the spectator that I have, when it comes to art, it’s about my interaction with art. Maybe it doesn’t need any, would you like to say something about that? With your position as a spectator.
2: Well, I.. I might have had something close to an aspiration of becoming an artist myself. Many times. But… But, Iike, I have. It is not an ambition, but I’m sort of on the outskirts and close to it at the same time.
— The interview gets interrupted. They find another place to sit —
2: Oh, there’s that cartoon. When I see the beginning of that, it’s like I’m back in Prague. I see a man and a cup. So, it made me think of that exhibition because of something that is, I don’t know, that I’ve seen somewhere else. And then I make yet another association with… and then… then it sort of expands an experience…..
1: That it sort of is the interaction?
2: M-hm.……………
1: One more question. You also work with art and culture, and you are interested in creating connections with art at work as well. Is there something in particular you had in mind? Is there a certain situation you’d like to expand on?
2: The most obvious thing is that I’ve had quite a few guided tours. Um.. and workshops for children. So, in that way I’ve combined the job as a preschool teacher and art procurement. And the tours. I’ve gone to those open exhibitions. But.. but then perhaps I’ve chosen art that many others don’t see as art. I found many examples, like in the way one can approach modern art. A more abstract kind of art. And initiate conversations about that. And that aspect can sometimes disappear a little. So, I’m not a curator, even though there was a tiny element in my education that developed into a curator study, about how to set up an exhibition. Provide a setting for an exhibition. But… but… And I’ve done that too. But what I’ve found amusing, has been those conversations. Um… about art. And also to bring my own children to exhibitions, which perhaps is a bit demanding.…. But… that’s not what I do at work primarily, but I’m really glad that I’ve got that background. In a municipal culture administration. And I think it is important to have that approach………..
1: One last question. You said that you think we’ve shared many private moments in association with things that you’ve made us do. You mentioned that part with clay and stockings on the head. Was there any other things like that or anything else you’d like to say about…
2: I think the session at your place, when we talked about our experiences from the exhibition in Prague, was very powerful. That one was perhaps the most powerful. Because we weren’t prepared, so it was… well, the impressions one had, perhaps not yet processed in one’s own head. And it says a lot about you as a person. How you tell it.
1: Is there some story in particular, told by the others, that you remember?
2: ……. Yes, several of the others expressed quite a lot of skepticism. Especially in the interview part. I mean, that conversation we had. But… and then there was this somewhat paranoid… Oscar claimed that he’d been hypnotized. So it made you think. I thought a lot about, “Is there something the others said, that I haven’t thought about?” But then I think that we are just different. We’re just different when it comes to, well, in how we approach the challenges we are given. And I sort of had the same. I mean, when you get in there, and get instructions. Well, I was prepared to do something, but maybe not that instantly… We got in there, and it… you kind of think, “Am I doing this? Is everyone doing this? Is anyone going back out again? Does anyone need to go out and prepare before they can go back in?” I mean, well, you learn a lot about people. Through how they react. And also when you realize that someone reacts completely different from you.
— They get interrupted by some music in the background, and comment on this before they continue the interview —
2: A lot of the things we have done, including the improvisation, have certainly been quite intense. And by chance, I ended up with that one person I kind of already know and meet in the halls at work with suit, so that was like….yeah.
1: Do you remember anything else about that?
2: How it was?
1: Yes.
2: That interview situation?
1: Yes.
2: Yeah, I remember thinking that I would just have to jump in with both feet. (laughing) Um… but like, when you’re in the middle of something, I don’t remember what… what.. I mean, it’s just an experience. A little bit like, “Ooh, help, we’ll just have to keep it going”. And… and… you just have to throw yourself into it. That’s what I thought. I guess it has gradually become a little stronger, that you trust the group. When it’s the same ones that come again and again, then it’s, it feels like it’s a little bit like… In the beginning it didn’t concern me that much. Then they were just like secret nameless persons. But towards the end, I’ve felt like we’re more like a group. And we know each other for better and for worse, without really knowing each other. That’s actually been a nice aspect of it. And that’s how I think about the experience of art as well. To be a part of the group and at the same time you share an experience, but that’s what you do. And that… that freedom that this entails, rather than experiencing it with your own children or with good friends, and you’ve thought, “I’m gonna take you to an exhibition now,” and then… no, that’s… That is an entirely different thing. Then you can end up thinking like, “This wasn’t really what they wanted to do.” But in this group you are completely free from thoughts like that. Because everyone is there of one’s own free will.….. And that… Maybe one should do it more often?
1: Yeah, it’s a very different way to..
2: Yeah.
1: Much more free. There are many liberties… yeah, I agree.
2: And I’m in a literature group as well. But we aren’t that many. And it is the same, and we are sort of friends, and we eat and talk about the books, more or less. While we can finish talking about some books in two minutes, we can end up talking about others time after time after time. But this group is something different. It becomes something else. It’s not the same freedom there.
1: No. A bit more social, perhaps?
2: Yes, it’s more social, and it’s a little bit more like, “Oh, I didn’t like the book she suggested that much, and I haven’t prioritized reading it” …Well, it can become a little bit like…… There are others. The reason we meet is the companionship really. Even though it’s because of the books as well, the setting is so casual. It’s not like a study arrangement. But there are definitely many good conversations there as well, when everything is right. And when you manage to get something more out of the book, if you liked it or not, and what really happened. But… but… a novel is, you have a review, you have so much else. But art is really, it’s more personal. How you approach it and what you talk about.
1: Yes, it is a little bit different when it comes to time usage. You probably spend days and a lot of time on books. While it’s not likely that you spend ten hours watching a movie, or five hours at an exhibition, right.
2: Yes. Yeah… Yeah, and you can say, if you don’t, if you choose some things over something else, then you might get completely different experiences, and it can be difficult to think that you can still talk about the experience. I mean, that you don’t talk about the piece of art, or the theory behind, or if you know something about the artist, but the experience… And perhaps continue from there……… No, so this group has really been a lot of things. The way I experienced it.
1: I think it will be good when I get to talk to each one. And I think there might be some more meetings, before it’s over. How do you think it will be?
2: Well, the next meetings?
1: Yes, or the ending. Say, you’ve liked being a part of it, do you have any idea of some sort of a bigger picture, or an ending, or do you think that it….
2: No, no I don’t want… I don’t really want that. I mean, the whole.. Well, during these last years it’s always been like, “What’s next?” We know that you’re having your presentation. We talked about that last time. And I don’t want to miss that. But, like, us as a group. Because now, many of us aren’t here, and they are traveling and such. I… I haven’t really thought about that. But I do think that there are some of them that I’d like to keep seeing, but that hasn’t really been up for discussion, I think…. But I feel that I’ve come to know many of them, even though I actually don’t know much more about them than what we’ve experienced together………….. Well, you know, I would gladly keep on doing this for three more years, that would not be a problem.. So it will be a little weird when it’s over…..
1: That’s nice to hear. It’s been really… nice to have a… a setting like that. And it’s not… And it’s actually a little bit ok with an advertisement like that. So that those who show up, show up, and that’s what we’re going to work with. And that’s that. And not like, “Oh, it should have been….”
2: No, like, “We should have been 10.” Yeah.
1: I also think it’s interesting in the work as well. That… it is what it is.
2: Yeah.
1: And like with many other things you don’t choose, you just take what you get.
2: Yeah, and I noticed that some of them may have expected something different than what it was, and stopped coming. And some, well, some move around, which obviously makes it difficult to show up. But that’s to be expected. But for those of us that have been part of the group, at least now this last year, and perhaps a little bit longer… Um…. We have, I feel that it’s become quite ok. In the beginning, it was a lot of that kind of contact, but now I feel that we are closer, in these last meetings. There’s more conversation. Not just speaking in turn when we’re told to ….
1: I don’t have any more questions. Is there anything else you would like to add?
2: Well, I have expressed very clearly and many times how much I appreciate this. I am, like I said, very grateful for this. Um… yes. It’s been a great opportunity for reflection.
1: Great, thank you very much for coming today.
2: Thank you for having me.

Interview 4

1: I’m starting the recorder now, so now you know it’s running.
2: M-hm.
1: I thought I should try out a special interview technique that I’ve used in other contexts as well. It’s quite simple because I only have one question. Quite open, and you respond, and what might be a bit unusual is that I never interrupt you, and it won’t be a typical conversational interview.
2: M-hm.
1: But I will take notes, listen to what you have to say, and when you are done, I will most likely have questions. And I’ll start with what you’ve said earlier on –
2: Yes, m-hm.
1: – and ask you some follow-up questions. And it’s been a little bit, like, I’ve been unsure of whether this question should be about the workshop or the focus group or other things. So for that reason, I’ve decided to let it be quite open, and then we can talk about what comes out of that later, what’s been said, what’s interesting. So, the question is about your lived experience, life experience, a life lived and our lives and… what makes us sit here. I think that if I ask about a life story, it’s so open that you can start wherever you want.
2: Yes, m-hm.
1: And stop whenever you want, and talk of what you find important. And you can decide how personal –
2: Yes, yes. Yes.
1: – and all that stuff. And it’s interesting, because everyone answers in completely different ways. And the interview is perhaps just a tool, before I see how to further… who’s been in this group. Because we haven’t had any kind of..
2: No, no. We’ve been anonymous so (laughing) I guess that’s over now (laughing).
1: Well, this is anonymous. In the sense that what you talk about in these interviews may be interesting, or, well, maybe it becomes apparent that several of you are participating because of this and that.. and in that kind of work you’re supposed to be anonymous. So it’s not something that can be used… It’s an internal work reflection. And in case something should come out of it, we could discuss that. It’s important that you’re not afraid that it will be…
2: Yes, that you..
1: So technically, I will ask if you accept. If we can try. So, formally, the question, what’s your life story. You can, as I mentioned, talk about whatever you want, start wherever you want, and I won’t interrupt you at all. Just take notes.
2: M-hm.
1: And in part two there will be follow-up questions… So, if you’re ready.
2: Yes.
1: Then I’m ready to hear your story.
2: (Laughing) My story. Well… Let’s see… Um, I just started thinking of a book. “Tristam Shandys story” or something like that. He’ss supposed to begin with his birth, but he just has to mention something else before that, and then he starts telling something before that, and before that, and before that. And it seems like he never gets to the point. I think it isn’t until the end of a very thick book that he finally gets to his own birth. So it’s about where to begin (laughing). Yes. Um… life story. Well, if you are to begin with the life story, and begin at the beginning.. I’m born in Drammen. Grew up there together with my younger brother. Um, and my parents were married for thirteen years (laughing) before they got divorced. Um, it was a little bit shocking to me. It affected me quite a lot in my youth. Should try to get through the boring stuff quickly, I guess (laughing). But anyway, I was very quiet my whole youth. I almost didn’t say anything. All through my teenage years, since I was thirteen to nineteen, that is, I almost didn’t talk. But I did pretty well in school though, so that went well enough. But it was a little bit hard. But then, I had an academic interest in school, especially the science subjects. So I chose that at the gymnasium, but I wasn’t very practical, so after the gymnasium I went to folk university college. On an arts and design program. In Western Norway. And then I had a real frenzy, where I made lots and lots of things and just drew and printed and weaved and, ah, yes. Made lots and lots and lots. And after that I wasn’t able to return to the natural sciences. So then it was art that sort of became my thing. So I was doing that for… well, several years. I studied some art history, and went to the arts and crafts school, which it was called back then. On coloring. Yes, for a couple of years I went to art school in Stavanger as well. So that is, like, what’s been my, in many years, it was art. Visual art was my main focus in life. And then, when I was done with that, it was a little bit stupid, that thing with my major, because I got really bad criticism by one of the external examiners (laughing). There were things that he meant I should’ve seen, that I didn’t understand or get. And that broke me down a bit. I couldn’t really do it right (laughing) after that. Then it was economics and stuff like that, and I ended up doing one year at the teachers college, and I’ve worked as a teacher. Art teacher in high school, junior high school, a little bit in college. Now it’s been a bit difficult in that field. So now I work, have worked for three years in preschool, which is very nice. But a little bit stupid, when you think of my competence, though.
And the last years I have been very interested in literature. So I’ve actually switched over to writing a little. Fictional. Um… and I also have. I have sort of both the artistic, like, I have to create something, or else I don’t feel well, if I give that up. Although I don’t know if I’ll ever succeed with it, but I sort of need to have something. A project or something going. But then there’s the practical and economical part of it that I.. Work as a teacher and stuff like that. And now I’ve been studying. Taken a one-year program in Norwegian at the university. That I do besides the job. So it’s both practical when you think of my work, and I also find it really interesting. So I’m preoccupied with language and literature these days. And I’ve never been married, but my brother he, (laughing) he said it pretty early on that he thought I’d never get married. I guess he could just tell by looking at me or something. That it wasn’t my thing. So I’ve always thought that I better stay away from that (laughing). And that’s what I’ve done. But, or at least to get married. And I don’t have kids either. But that’s actually quite ok. I think that it kind of suits me, although I really like children. But I don’t need to have my own. But I think it’s fantastic to work in the preschool with all those little toddlers. It’s kind of that human development and how they learn language and social interaction and all that stuff. I find it very interesting, both to observe and to be able to influence it. Yes. And I’m also, when it comes to visual art, I’m really into the, or really into, I sort of like that, um… something a bit untraditional. Or it’s not that I don’t like traditional art too, because I’m quite omnivorous when it comes to art history, but I think that the things that are made today should be innovative, or I think is more interesting if something is a bit off the beaten track. A little bit challenging in different ways. And it’s the same with literature. I actually find the realistic novels kind of uninteresting. I like it when it’s sort of experimenting. So that’s part of the reason why I… um, got excited about that ad of yours (laughing), because I thought “Wow, this is a little bit weird,” like something peculiar that I didn’t quite understand. But I like that, though. When it’s a little bit, a bit like… I don’t need to know exactly what I get. To me that’s not interesting at all, kind of like, when I read a book and kind of know.. Crime, for instance, I don’t care about reading that (laughing). Because it’s a little bit predictable. Um…yes. M-hm. Then we’ve arrived at the present (laughing), present time.. yes. I’ve told almost everything (laughing). A little bit quickly perhaps. M-hm…
1: Ok, I don’t know if there’s anything else you’d like to add?
2: Well, like I said earlier. I tend to, or I get hooked on things. For a while, but then I can get hooked on something else. Like I was really into visual art for many, many years, and then I was hooked on that computer stuff, that blogging and second life stuff. Was completely caught up in that. But these last years I’ve been hooked on literature (laughing). M-hm. Yeah, get hooked on things, and then I abandon.. I don’t know, I should, I’ve heard that one should immerse oneself in just one thing and just remain there and stuff like that. And I can see that those who do this get further than I have. But I don’t really know, I kind of like to learn new stuff. Figure out new things and stuff. Yeah……….
1: Ok, nothing else?
2: No…. I don’t know. Something else… well, it’s like family, or I think that I kind of have, in a way, or it’s probably the same for everyone. But, that you are like, influenced by family background and stuff like that. Um.. how it’s been, and how the parents have been. Now I’m starting to be like that guy, like “before my birth”, (laughing) how you are a little bit like, at least to some degree, a product of stuff beyond yourself. At the same time I think that you do create your own life. To a great extent, you choose your own path in life. And can influence it. So, something that I’ve been interested in, it’s for instance this relationship between the Norwegian and the Sami. Because my mother is from Northern Norway. And she denies there being any Sami blood in the family. It’s really common to do this. But it’s kind of weird because I, my grandmother is from Finnmark, and her grandmother is from Finnmark, and her uncle, he’s from Northern Finland, also from the Sami regions. And my grandmother spoke Sami, I’m sure of it (laughing). So I’ve been a bit interested in the Sami culture. Tried to learn some Sami as well actually. And I’ve been trying to look into it. And I think it’s kind of interesting, that relationship between those two cultures. Like, what’s happened in the course of time. And all that stuff, and that there’s still so much shame. When it comes to being Sami, or, yeah, I think it’s a little bit awful really, that it’s like this. I’ve come up against this lots of times. When I worked in school and stuff, where for example it says in the curriculum that we’re going to study the Sami culture, and then I hear the colleagues saying “No, no. This doesn’t concern us. We’re not doing this. It’s for them, this is just for the Sami.” Kind of like, in the population, the Norwegian population. We’re kind of like imperialists. We are. Pretty much like.. At any rate, it’s still many who have a disparagement of the Sami. That’s really quite awful. But it’s not, I don’t know, there’s not much focus on this. Or, there’s some, sometimes it’s brought up, that stuff about Sami girls being bullied in town, or there were stories like that from Trondheim and such. Where, well yeah, it kind of became a term of abuse. Yeah. So I’ve been a bit interested in things like that.
So that was about my mother’s background. Like, that I kind of see it. It’s increased some, I mean, it’s kind of softened up a little bit. But I’ve continually been bringing it up. Because I find it so terrible that people are almost racist in a way. Yeah… but it is some kind of a racism in it… yeah….. Yes. And my father, I can say something about my father. He was an oddball. He is like a notorious pathological liar, so you never know if he’s telling the truth. But he is really witty though. And he grew up partly in an orphanage. Because he had asthma, he couldn’t live at home, and he’s had quite a special childhood. He was born in 33, and I don’t think the orphanages back then were very good. One of them were closed down because it was totally crazy, there were mentally disabled kids, a disorganized mayhem and they were shitting on the floor, and it was really awful. It was closed down. So he had a special childhood. He’s actually a little bit like, he’s very open and sociable, but in a way he is kind of an outsider too. But he’s kind of completely, when it comes to the social part, he is sort of an outsider, and I believe that has something to do with his childhood in orphanages. M-m… I think so. Yeah… (laughing) ……..Yes.
1: If you are..
2: Yes.
1: ..ready, I will take a look and ask you some questions that.. it can take a minute or two, so if you should think of something more you can just..
2: Yes, yes. I can talk a little bit about. I was thinking about this with my dad. Because there are some themes there. Where he….. he might almost be close to becoming an alcoholic. He’s probably maybe, I’m not sure if he is, but he has to drink beer every day. Or else he gets desperate (laughing). But he is really kind though, so it’s not like that. And there’s also a little bit of drug, or like drug abuse. His father was an alcoholic. One of my nephews, or two of my nephews really (laughing). They have also had drug problems and still do, I guess. So that’s also kind of an issue, and I’ve been especially involved with this one nephew of mine. He’s actually had very serious drug problems. It’s not that serious now. But I feel that he is really, how can I say this.. We are very much alike, or I don’t really think we are, but he has that artistic talent. He’s actually more talented than I am, at both drawing and music. So, I feel an affinity to him. So we get along very well. And I’ve been very preoccupied with getting him straight. That’s a part of the, yes, the last years. At least the last ten years it’s been a big part of my life. To help him. Yeah. M-hm……….
1: Then I’ll spend a minute or two.
2: M-hm.
……………….
1: I have some questions.
2: Huh?
1: I have some quest –
2: – Yeah, you have some questions (laughing).
1: Are you ready? …………. You said that your parents were married for 13 years. And then they got divorced. And that must have influenced you in your youth.
2: M-hm.
1: Anything in particular that you remember, you say that it influenced you, what kind of influence..
2: Yes. Um.. well, it was a bit weird, the way they communicated this to me. Um.. I was a bit unlucky I think, because, now I’m not quite sure how this happened. But I was told by a friend as we walked home after school. She asked me if my parents were getting a divorce. And then I thought, or like I think now as a grown-up, in hindsight, that there was a rumor going around, and that they were talking about this all over town, so to speak.

And that it didn’t, that I heard it from someone else. So then I got home, and I asked my mum if it was true. And then she says, “No, it’s not true.” And then some time passes, I don’t remember, a few days or weeks or something like that. And then, one night my… um, my dad follows me up to the bathroom, when we’re going to bed, and then he says, and they don’t even tell me together, right. They kind of, and then he says it, that they are getting a divorce. And then it was just like (laughing), “Oh my God.” At first it was a shock, that they were getting a divorce, but another thing is that you hear it from someone else, that there are someone in town that, like everyone in town knows it before I do. And, but I don’t actually know if that’s how it happened. Or, I mean, there might have been a rumor before even my mother knew, perhaps, but I do think she was the one making the decision. But it was like, it was something like, that I felt I couldn’t trust anyone. Or something, or someone. It was kind of like cutting the ground from under my feet, that um.. it affected me a bit. Also, I couldn’t show my grief. Or the way that I showed it was to become completely shut down. Quiet. So it was a really bad way to react, but it was how I reacted. So I think that introversion probably was, um.. that I was a bit like that even before the divorce. But when this happened, this way of reacting sort of became, unfortunately this introversion intensified, so to speak, right, so it was, yeah. So that was kind of like a partition where I sort of fell silent. Well, I don’t know. There was also an aggression that I didn’t know where to direct. Because it was really difficult. Um, also, um, yeah. And, I guess, perhaps, I think the fact that neither my mom nor my dad knew how to talk about this, that this also played a part. Because it was just that message. And then some time passed, and we moved out with my mum. It wasn’t very far away so we also had a really, really good connection with my dad. But there was no more talk, my mum never talked about it. Never told me what happened. It wasn’t until after I became an adult, that I started trying to figure it out, make them talk. But they were just like, just that message, and that was it (laughing). So I, it was a little bit like that, yes. It was something about that anger that I actually had because they didn’t tell, or because I heard it from someone else first, and that they didn’t talk to me about it, and they didn’t talk about how I got all quiet either (laughing). And many, many years later, I was watching a movie about divorce on the TV. And then my dad says, “I remember you, Nina. You became so quiet”. And I was like (making annoyed sound). Nobody that, um.. yeah, that tried to help me out of the silence. So I had to work really hard to get out of it on my own. And then, I was, through all of my youth I was as good as gone, in a way. I didn’t talk. I did have some good friends though, so it was kind of ok. But after that I went to folk university college. That was both because I wanted to do that art stuff, but also because I wanted to leave home, and meet people so that I kind of had to start talking, right. Interact with other people and stuff like that. So that I, I spent years to get back to being almost normal. To be able to talk normally to people. It took me many years. M-hm. Yeah. I believe that this was also latent in me, that I probably was a little bit like, shyness and stuff before that as well. It just got really intensified by that incident. M-hm.. I think. Yeah…………..
1: You said that after this period (34:00 ??) folk university college and get into a more creative process. And like you said, weren’t able to resume the study of natural sciences. Do you remember anything in particular in that, what happened that can describe that “Now there’s no way back.” You say you weren’t able to resume the natural sciences. Did you make any attempt, or are there any things like that, describing..
2: Well, don’t really know because, um… because I really liked those subjects, but I think that some of it can be explained by, you might say, perhaps by the poor career guidance we had back then. So I sort of didn’t know how to proceed. Or what I could become, how I could study. It was like, really… vague in a way, I didn’t really get what I… both that I didn’t understand what I could apply for, or what I could become. I don’t really know. And it also seemed kind of dreary to become some sort of an engineer or pharmacist or something like that. So, yeah.. (laughing). I was really interested in biology, um.. and all that stuff about life cycles and chemistry and the formulas and everything. I found it exciting, but I didn’t have any notion of what I could become. And there are no one in my family either, that knew anything about it. Because my dad is a craftsperson, and my mum works in a store and stuff, so they didn’t have a clue, or any advice. And, um… then it was, I don’t know how… I just got really into, kind of a frenzy, in that folk university college. Where everything was available, all kinds of techniques and drawing and we were just at it. Day and night, so to speak (laughing). So that was really great, that year. I don’t really know how to say it, but it was kind of like I switched over and just wanted to keep on doing it. And I couldn’t see what kind of job, or how I could proceed. With that. But it can also be something else, that made me change direction. Because, well, then I must go back a bit, because my father has also been very interested in art. Or not that interested, but he has been interested in art. And he had an uncle that was a painter. And I remember one time that I saw my dad (laughing) in the living room. We had this painting made by that uncle. And this one time, I was maybe ten years or so, and I saw my dad standing there, watching that painting. And he had this really special, admiring look in his eyes. So there was something that sort of, well, I saw that very special look in his eyes that he had while looking at this painting. I think this may have affected me in one way or another, to see what’s important, I mean, right? What’s important, what’s good. And it’s the same with the age. I wished for a chemistry set for my birthday, but I didn’t get it. It’s totally unbelievable, but I wished for it several times. Christmas and birthday and Christmas and birthday. Didn’t get it. And I thought that was, I think that maybe this had to do with me being the only one in the family with an interest for science. And that they didn’t think it was any, I think it had something to do with gender as well, that girls weren’t supposed to be interested in that kind of stuff. Because my brother got a chemistry set later. And he didn’t even want it. So that was, or, I don’t know. I shouldn’t have given in, but. So I think this may unconsciously have affected me. I mean, what they thought was important also, right? What’s good and essential. So they never supported me in my schooling when it came to the science. That was something I did on my own (laughing). So, yeah. M-hm… So that… Yeah.
1: I’ve got some more questions.
2: Yes (laughing).
1: You said that you studied art history, arts and crafts, color, art and visual art in focus. That it was a new focus in life. And was it in your major, that you got this severe criticism?
2: Yes.
1: There were things that you didn’t see, that you should have seen. That sort of put a..
2: Yes (laughing).
1: I’m a bit curious about –
2: – what it was
1: Yes, if you remember anything.
1: Um… yes. My major, well, we’d recently had a guest teacher that, where we got an assignment. We were to draw a square, and then a square inside a circle, and color it and stuff. And they hung it up on the wall, and then based on the pictures he would interpret our personalities. It was a Mandala, just a simple Mandala. And then he was like, (in a mocking tone) “That black up in that corner, it means this and that,” and this really provoked me (laughing). I found it really provoking, the way he did that. So that made me really preoccupied with the relationship between the picture and its meaning, and started working with that. Like, how does a significance take form in a picture. What is it that, yeah. Was working with that. But I don’t know if I really managed to do it, but at least I tried, and after a while I started working with photography. Tried to create a situation where the photograph ended up being a crash between different meanings and interpretations. Where they sort of didn’t fit together. Where it somehow became clear, or that you begin to interpret something there, but then something else happens that gets interpreted and it goes completely, where the interpretations and the meanings crash and maybe wipe each other out or things like that. That I was a bit interested in. So I thought that was interesting. Um… but then, with the photography stuff, I started making use of people, and they did different things in different positions and objects and also emotional expressions and stuff. And then I felt that it was uncomfortable to make other people do it. So I started taking photos of myself (laughing). And, yeah, because then I could manipulate it more freely. I mean, because I didn’t need to ask anyone, or bend anyone into expressing something else, or like I’d decided. But what… what I didn’t think of (laughing), was that taking photos of myself, in a way it is, or at least it can be seen as a type of narcissism. So that’s what this one examiner pointed out. That I hadn’t written about this in my assignment, and that I hadn’t realized this myself. That this was some kind of, that my assignment was about this, or was narcissistic or something like that. And then I go like, “Oh my god,” and there was something about it that you, like it’s right there in front of you, but you can’t see it. I felt that there was something that I… um.. didn’t, I don’t know. Maybe I thought I was going to have much more control, or understand what I did, or know what I did (laughing), but then you get like, like, “Gee”. Perhaps what he was right, but the way he said it was also uncomfortable. So I was a little bit like, “Wow, oh my god.” And the life in school was kind of sheltered, right. And it was kind of like, “Ok, now you’re going out into the world to show this, but you have no idea about what it is that you are showing.” I wasn’t really ready to take a blow like that in public. I’m really shy when it comes to putting myself out there, in public. I can be quite open, in other settings, but when it comes to that kind of stuff, I don’t feel.. Like I don’t really get what people are doing. Or it gets a little bit too tough, or too crass. So I’ve been really like, I make stuff, and to different stuff, but the showing off part, I’m very, a bit afraid of it, kind of. M-hm. It’s like, it has a little bit to do with that incident. I get a little bit, like. Lots of agendas that I don’t really get, I think. Maybe because you’ve been busy, and done the stuff that you do here, and not been thinking of the interaction, or the art world in the same way. M-hm. Yeah………..
1: You said that you started studying at the teachers college also because of economic reasons. And did some teaching at college after that. And work in preschool, that you liked. Is there something, is there anything in particular, is it possible to describe it. In what way is the preschool –
2: – Yes, why I liked it. Well, what I really like about preschool is the, um… that the play is such a big part of it. I really like that. Really like to play, and I think it’s a fantastic way to learn things, to socialize. It kind of reminds me of the artistic way. It’s about that it doesn’t need to, there’s not a logic that, um, has to be the same each time. It can be new logic, it doesn’t have to be logic, it’s this game with things. And such. Use the imagination and stuff. I really like that. And that the kids are so spontaneous, and… and if you want to, it’s really easy to get in touch with them. If you make yourself available, then they’re just there, and that’s… yeah, that’s also really great. So there’s lots of closeness. Yeah, a lot of closeness. In every way, both physically and emotionally. And… yeah. So that’s what I like about it. Yes. A very immediate closeness with the kids. M-hm, yeah…………
1: I’ll continue.
2: Yes.
1: You said that you’ve been interested in literature the last years, and kind of switched over. That it’s still creative, artistic. Could you say some more about that threshold, about going into the literature, or..
2: Yes, because it actually happened a bit, um. Because I’d attended that teachers college, and then I got a job straight after, in a high school. And at the same time I actually had a studio, and I tried to work in the studio and work fulltime at the school at the same time. And after two years I thought like, “This is not working” (laughs). “It’s not working out, I have to quit my work in the studio. I have to quit my art, and become a teacher. That’s it.” And then when I started my third year working as a teacher, I only worked for a couple of weeks before I just cracked up. It didn’t work. And then I fell ill. It was really terrible. I was granted a sick leave, and then I quit the job. And then, in this crisis, I got all these ideas. Like, I was brimming with ideas, so I didn’t know what to do, and then I thought, “Ok, then I’ll just have to sort of drain myself” (laughing). And then, in this crisis, I started writing. And I wrote. Wrote, wrote, wrote. And then I felt that it was like, taking shape. That some nice things came out of it. And then I got more excited about it. Started to, I wrote almost constantly for many years, so to speak. And I really liked it myself, but I guess I was a bit uncritical, in a way. But at least that was when I got over it, I got into a writing frenzy. To write, and I was so into it that I…yeah, switched over to literature. M-hm. So that’s kind of how it happened. A bit sudden. But I was interested in text and literature prior to this, but that’s how it happened, the transition………..
1: You said that you have a brother. And that when you were young, or that he said you’ll never get married.
2: M-hm (laughing).
1: Do you remember that episode? When he said it? Was it something he said many times?
2: Um… I don’t remember if he said it to me directly. No, don’t quite remember. Um… but it happened in my early twenties, I think Maybe a little bit earlier. He was just a teenager when he said it (laughing). No, I actually think he said it to my dad, and then he told me, or something. That he, yeah. They had probably been wondering a bit (laughing). Yes. So, I don’t think he said it to me directly. But I heard it, like, from my dad. M-hm.
1: In preschool, you said that you were, that you were busy, you talked about human development, social interaction, related to observing and influencing. Could you say something more about that?
2: M-hm… yeah, because, um… like the socialization for instance, little kids like that, they um… when they play together and stuff like that, they will quite often start fighting. They bite and hit and stuff, and then we have to teach them that this is not ok. To influence them, influence them and teach them how we talk to each other. That we talk in a calm manner and have a dialogue. This is how we talk to each other instead of hitting and pinching, and not yell and scream to each other and stuff. That’s how you influence. M-hm. I think it’s important that I’m a role model, that I try to behave the way I want them to behave, and how they should be when they’re grown up. That they learn a way to interact that is kind of nice. That build on dialogue, and to see each other and understand each other and things like that. Yes, and how you can influence their social development. And to feel like a part of a community. And actually, like, on the top it’s, I think it is um… I think that it is, that I work with a future democracy. That they are going to be part of a democracy, and kind of preserve that democracy. M-hm. I find it very meaningful to influence them to get an understanding of community, and to be seen and heard. Learn to listen to others. And that interaction. M-hm………
1: You talked a little bit about… art history, innovative, challenging artistic things in different ways. That you like experimental, that is, experimental expressions. The unpredictable. And you said, I thought of your ad, which was peculiar.
2: Yes.
1: It might have been unpredictable. Do you remember anything else? Contact with the ad, or the consequences, what happened.
2: Yeah, how was it, really? There were participants in an anonymous group. I don’t remember the whole text, how it was. Um… but, yeah, or I think that I at least understood that we were going to be part of a process, some kind of a research process, or artistic research, in a sense. Well, I don’t really know, I just… I… Yeah, I kind of think that to, or it’s been a lot of art now where the audience partake in the art itself. So I’m sort of curious about this project, and, or how. Yes, and I wanted to try being a part of something like that myself. Or, yes. Yes. Thought that. I don’t remember exactly what I thought, just that I thought that it was like something I’d never seen before, and got really curious about it. M-hm… took the chances, and decided to join. It’s also been a bit of a mystery this whole time, but it was kind of (laughing), yes……………
1: You said that one shouldn’t know what’s coming.
2: No, no (laughing). No, we’ve never known exactly what to expect, so it’s a bit like um.. peculiar. And I was like, yeah. Challenging not to know what to expect. You don’t know exactly what it is, you don’t know what you’ll get, don’t know where it’s all going. But that’s nice though. Like I said, when you go to an exhibition, to know exactly what you’re getting is a bit boring. But, oh well. It’s nice to go to these old classics, and modern classics. It’s nice to go and see them. I like that as well, but… not just that. Not just the safe stuff. Yeah…………….
1: You said that people often are colored by family background, parents, how you’re a product of something beyond yourself. At least to a certain degree.
2: Yes.
1: Is there anything specific you had in mind in this context?
2: Well, it’s the family background to my parents and… yeah, how people were thinking at that time, when they got married. How an ideal family was supposed to be. And then it didn’t really work out, and then came the 70s when it was ok to get a divorce, and many got divorced. It was in the beginning of a divorce boom. But there are so many things that you, that’s affected by the society, trends in the society. And education, how it became more and more available, and a great expansion of the middle class, and the lower middle class, that got a higher education and things like that. So, there are so many things that changes with time, affecting our lives, and you can sort of decide some of the things within this. But there are so many ideas and conceptions and lots of stuff that you, that affects us from the outside. You can’t just invent yourself, but you can in a way seek out some, find your way among all this. So you end up being a blend of it all, so to speak. M-hm……..
1: You said, about the Norwegian and the Sami, that there’s been a denial, denial of Sami blood. Is there any episode in particular that you can think of, that took place, a specific denial, or has it been more like…
2: Well… specific.. well, there was for example this one time when we visited in Tromsø, the place they come from. At my aunt’s place, who also denies – and we’ve been sitting around the table talking and stuff, and this aunt of mine, who is ten years older than my mum, she’s also in complete denial. And she’s probably a bit, almost a real racist. So there are things like, where… or, I mean, conversations, where they’ve tried to put their foot down, but I’ve been prodding a bit at that, anyways (laughing)…. And there’s one episode, it’s not that long ago, but… my mum talked about these ear tags they had home at the farm that they put in the ears of the sheep. And their brand was called Suolu. And that was a weird name. That brand of theirs. Suolu. Because it means something in Sami. That’s what’s weird about it. I’ve kind of been (laughing). So I said, «But that means something in Sami,» I say, and then: “No, no, no, no.” So I’ve kind of been prodding a bit at that. But when it’s like… um… when I started. Don’t remember exactly when, when I got interested in it. Can’t remember exactly…. No, I can’t remember when I started to… to look into that. Can’t really. Could it be any specific incident that made me interested? Don’t exactly remember. No………
1: I have one more question…….. You said that it, about these two cultures, the shame connected to being a Sami, that it was a devaluation of the Sami that was quite awful. Is there anything in particular you had in mind when you said that?
2: M-hm…. Yes…. I guess it’s like a general, I mean… um…. Take for instance my mother’s relationship to the Sami. They lived on a quite remote island, Kvaløy, outside of Tromsø. And there, on Kvaløy, two Sami families used to come in the summer with their reindeer herd. And in that fjord, a Sami family used to come every summer. And… my grandmother got along well with this family. She was often visiting them and talking to… to them, and, and sometimes that woman came visiting, sitting in the kitchen, in my mother’s home. And sometimes my mum was there as well, but she always got really, really afraid of the Sami. She didn’t like going over to them, and they had these angry dogs, and they lived in these turf huts, right. Really beggarly, living in these dirt huts. It was really beggarly. And the reindeer hides, and like, living in dirt. So my mother told me how she used to hate having that Kitty over, the Sami woman was called Kitty. Kitty had been visiting, had coffee with my grandmother. Then she could smell the stench afterwards. Reindeer. Because the hygiene gets different. When you live in dirt huts with these reindeer hides and stuff. And she thought it was terrible. So, living in houses, and the hygiene and stuff. And these people that are completely primitive and live in dirt huts and, what’s a little bit like. I think it’s a poverty thing, that… that might have contributed to the devaluation of them as a people. That they’re like um… closer to the animals than us, the Norwegians, that live in houses and stuff. Something about that, which still remains. When it comes to their… yeah. And maybe they also were a bit um… more brutal, I don’t know. There’s some brutality also, with slaughter, and… maybe it has to do with not understanding the language, then it’s a bit scary. That they are regarded as more primitive. I don’t know. And like… because it might be that we, the townspeople, kind of have a romantic, I mean, that we romanticize a bit. Right? That we find it more exciting and exotic, the Sami culture. But for those that lived right in the middle of it, then (imitating) “Well, you don’t know how it was.” (laughing) I, who live in the south-east of Norway, don’t know exactly how it was, right. So… M-hm. But I guess it wasn’t a peaceful living up there. I don’t know. It was also a little bit of a struggle. I think they had the right to come there with the reindeer herd and things like that. There are regulations, that they have the right, so I guess it’s a bit of a… struggle for land rights, and stuff. But then my grandmother, for instance, she was friends with that Sami woman, so yeah… I don’t know. There’s a lot to…um… that also. Oh, what’s it called, to identify with the poor, sort of. That’s no fun. Or to be identified with them. Because it, all those thoughts of the Sami and stuff. It’s much stronger in Northern Norway, where they live next to each other. We are more distanced from it down here in the east, so yeah.. M-hm.. Yes… But it kind of is some, that it… I mean, the conflict is kind of maintained. It’s that old, I think it originates from long ago. And it’s that Norwegianization as well, right. Really stringent Norwegianization. That was directed against the Sami. That’s still somewhat present. And a lot of Sami families worked hard to, well, not teach their children Sami. Like, teach them Norwegian, because that’s what’s best for them. So that’s internalized, that devaluation of themselves. So.. yeah. It’s a pretty tragic situation. Because even if that stringent Norwegianization is over now, it can be.. so… I don’t know really. I mean, that general devaluation of the Sami, it’s still there, it’s alive. So that, partly political as well. They got some Sami Parliament and rights and things like that, but it’s not really, there’s still some fear, I think. Of the Sami from of old, when they also belonged to other countries. They had to pay tax to three countries, and their loyalty has been called into question, and things like that. Are they loyal to Norway, or to Sweden, or Russia? They’re kind of like… one doesn’t trust. Yeah, that they’re a bit unreliable. Yes, there are many things like that, when it comes to the Sami. So it’s really interesting, and really tragic too. M-hm……………
1: You said that your father is funny. A notorious pathological liar.
2: (laughing) Yes.
1: Is there anything else you’d like to say about the lying?
2: (laughing) Well, it can be some funny things. I mean, sometimes I just don’t get why he lies. That’s… that’s why I call him a pathological liar, because sometimes his lying just doesn’t make sense. There are some really comical episodes. That… I had this old car, a Beetle. And he’d helped me fixing it, for many years. It’s parked now though, but anyways… something about the rear lights that had stopped working, and then my dad says, “Well, the rear lights aren’t working.” So he was going to bring it to a garage and have it fixed. And stuff. And… and after he’d done that, he said that there was nothing wrong with those lights, they were working just fine. “They were working?” I asked. “That’s strange.” Yup, there was nothing wrong with those lights. “But I saw that they weren’t working, and you saw it too.” Nope, the boys in the garage said everything was working just fine. “Ok,” I said. And, or it was, I don’t remember exactly, because this is many years ago. But then… I knew what I’d seen (laughing), so like, talked. “What are you telling me, was I wrong?” Had I been wrong? Was I completely out of it? But just at the end he admitted that, «No wonder that you,» – No, it was the front lights. “No wonder you didn’t see anything, when the lights didn’t work,” he said at the end. After all of that, because I’d been driving that night, and it was pitch-dark in front of me, I think that’s how it was. And then I think: Why is he coming up with these stories, and telling me that the lights didn’t work? So it’s like, it’s just really weird. Like, is that something you would want to lie about? No, I don’t understand it (laughing). And then in the end he admitted it. So it’s a bit like, when he tells you something, you’ll just have to take it with a pinch of salt. And, also, he had many weird, because he, he’s beginning to get old, so he has to pass a test every year to be allowed to keep his driver’s license, and… There was something about.. that… that he’d taken an eye exam, and his vision wasn’t good enough. He had to do a laser operation, but he didn’t want to, because he was afraid to do it. And then suddenly one day he came by and said that he’d gotten his driver’s license now. “But, how did you do that?” I said, “With your bad vision and all.” Oh, but he had done the operation all right. “What?” I said. “Did you go through with the operation?” Yup! That’s right. He wanted to show how brave he was (laughing). That he was brave enough to go through with the operation. So he’d done it. And then my brother comes over, and he says, “No, he hasn’t had any operation. He hasn’t worn any eye patch, so he didn’t do it.” But my dad kept claiming he’d had his eyes lasered. And I don’t know what to believe. If he had the operation, or, I don’t know. It’s just a (laughing), a bit peculiar way to lie. I don’t get what, why he lies about stuff like that. Yeah, he’s a lot of things like that. Yes. But, um… yeah, that was when I talked to him about it, and I asked him why are you lying so much, and things like that. And then he said, (sort of mocking/funny tone) “What, am I just going to sit her then?” (laughing). So I think at least he is getting some fun out of it. Like, to make up these weird, weird things. He can’t just sit around moping. Yeah. So in a way he is very witty, but it’s a bit uncertain too, because I don’t really know if he could lie about important things, about… like when he tried to make me seem completely insane, in a way, with those car lights. Like I was completely… (laughing). So it’s a bit, m-hm. It’s a bit funny. But it’s been fairly ok, up until now at least(laughing). It’s just a bit comical, in a way, that lying. Yeah……….
1: I have one more question. You said that he had a special childhood, that he in some ways was an outsider. Can you think of any other things that makes him an outsider?
2: Um… He is, well, now I don’t remember exactly how I said it, but I think he’s a bit like, when it comes to being social he’s a bit ostracized, in a way. I mean…um… he has some loyal friends, but… he doesn’t really fit in everywhere, not among the cultured and sophisticated. He is invited sometimes though, but he’s excluded by the family. The closest family keep some distance to him. Um… and other things that makes him an outsider, I don’t know… I don’t know, he… no, because he’s always been really hard working and mastered his job and such. He’s not your average Joe. There’s something messy about him (laughing), both physically, quite messy, but also kind of mess, in one way or another, he’s not like… like… the stable family man type. And he’s also got a vivid imagination, really imaginative, and comes up with so much weird stuff. Yeah. But he’s not a complete outcast, though, but he is a bit on the sideline looking in. And I’ve been thinking that maybe it has to do with his childhood, because it was a very special childhood. Where he, because he has an identical twin brother, and then my dad got asthma. So he was sent to an orphanage, while the other twin stayed at home. So… it was really like, a bit strange. That he had to move out of his home. Already when he was quite young he lived, when he was very young he lived in the hospital. Um… was there, lived there for quite a while.
And for two periods he was in two different orphanages until he was, well, up until his teens, I guess. M-hm. So, for a big part of his childhood he lived outside the home. That’s a bit like, ok, he has that family of his, but most of his childhood he didn’t live at home. So his position in the family is a bit odd, and it’s still like that actually. He’s a bit excluded from his family. Yeah………
1: I have one last question, I have a couple of things that might make up one question, if it’s ok for you to… You said that you, that it was a theme, what you mentioned about your father, drug abuse, he’d have a drink now and then. I thought we could talk a bit about your nephew.
2: M-hm.
1: You said that he was struggling a bit, but that the two of you in a way had a lot in common, he has an artistic talent, and the music, but that it’s important that you’ve tried to get him on the right track the last ten years, and that it’s important… so I don’t know if this is hard to talk about, then you don’t need to…
2: – No.
1: … go into details, but it could be interesting to hear a bit about what, in what ways one can help, or if there’s anything you’d like to tell about it.
2: Yes, um… it’s actually a really stupid story, kind of. Because when he was a little boy, something happened in the family. There were actually some signs suggesting some, like some violence, abuse, things that I talked about. Um, and I contacted social security to get advice, and sort of try to find out if there was something wrong. That I’d seen. But the thing is, I didn’t really get much support from social security, or I don’t know. Not really. And we had a falling out. Or they didn’t want anything to do with me anymore (laughing). So, from he was five until he was eighteen or something, I was completely shut out of my brother’s family because of this. (Takes a deep breath) So, it was really stupid.. but… but um.. but when he was about 18-19 years old he contacted me, and came back to me, and we got that same, close relationship that we’d had before, when he was a kid. Um… and then he had… like, he had a need to, because things had been kept back and hushed up, and other awful things had happened, in his childhood, and then, at the end of his teenage years, he’d started taking drugs. So when he contacted me I thought: I can’t just sit here and lie. If he has questions, he’ll get answers, he’ll get all the answers he wants. Um… so that was how it started, that he seeked me out. And we really have a very close relationship. Open, and I talk to him about everything, and he is quite open-hearted when he tells me things. But after that, he had a terrible period where he was taking that crystal meth or something like that (laughing). Completely, completely insane. He went psychotic. For some years he was completely crazy because of that stuff. Um… and then it, well, it almost ended up going really, really bad. Luckily it didn’t. (Takes a deep breath) Um… so I’ve been talking to him… um… and motivated him to get an education, and he went to Norges Kreative Fagskole (Norways creative university college), studied illustration, and he managed to finish it by the skin of his teeth. And last year he went to England and got his bachelor in illustration. So he got there and managed to go through with it. So that’s very, very good. And he is also, he smokes a lot of weed, so he’s not completely clean. But now he’s actually, he has applied for the Teachers college, so then he’ll just have to stop with the smoking. (Deep breath) Well, we… we have a really close relationship. Um… but it’s clear that neither his mother or father are willing to talk about those sorrows. Um… we just had a horrible discussion this last weekend, and my brother just sits there and yells and complains about these (laughing) kids of his, that they don’t do the right things. They probably have some problems, and then… I tell them, I try to help by telling my brother that you have to, you have to talk about the more weighty stuff, instead of talking about these superficial problems, about how they can’t keep their jobs and this and that. There are great sorrows here, and we should talk about them instead. Like, what’s underneath the surface. So I try to help a bit with that. To process it. And at least be a, for my nephew, like I always want to listen to him, and that he can, like, talk to me about all these things that’s happened, all his worries, and if he asks me he’ll get answers, and no lying. My dad’s like that, a tendency to lie, and my brother is actually like that too. There is something weird there, some evasion stuff. But anyways, I’ve been kind of a close conversation partner for my nephew, and then we’ll see how it goes.. It might not go so well, I don’t know (laughing). He’s doing fairly well now though. But he can’t go to the Teachers college and smoke weed. That won’t work out. He’ll have to stop doing that. So I wonder how that’ll turn out. Because it’s a really bad combination. To be a teacher and… no that’s just not an option. Yeah.
1: Is it primary school that he wants to..
2: Yes, I think that’s what he wanted, so yeah, m-hm. Oh well, but it’s very nice if he… (exhaling) Yeah. M-hm.
1: I don’t have any other specific questions. But if there’s anything you’d like to add..
2: Well, I think I’ve said a lot now (laughing). But I haven’t told you anything that I don’t, it’s not a problem for me to talk about any of the things I’ve been talking about today. So, like, yeah. M-hm.
1: Thank you for giving such an open interview.
2: Yeah, well…
1: But it’s nice, it makes sense, absolutely.
2: Yeah.
1: You’re really good at sort of opening up these rooms, those episodes.
2: Yes, see where it all comes from, in a sense. One doesn’t always understand it, but… M-hm. But I’ve actually spent quite some time considering these, well family situations, and… and a lot of things like that. So… I’m a little bit… I’m beginning to get old, you know. Should be done with these things soon (laughing). Yeah.
1: May I ask you, the Sami..
2: Yes.
1: Do you think that… that it, do you expect that it will open up more, and that you might…
2: No… no, I don’t really know. Um.. I think, when it comes to our own family background, I think that it’s like, um… my great-grandmother spoke Finnish, so it might be more Finnish, or Kven or something like that. But it doesn’t matter. It would’ve been really cool if I discovered that it was Sami, but (laughing) no, I don’t know, don’t have any, I just think it’s fun to look into it. Because there’s some sort of racism behind it all. And also to figure out how this can come to pass… Um… and like, where it um… and also politics has played a part, from the Norwegian side, right. With that devaluation of the Sami. But, like, now the same system has been transferred to the people. Although we’ve kind of stopped, it’s still very present. Wasn’t it in Tromsø, or what was it, something about the last elections, there was a really anti-Sami thing… I guess it was some… now I don’t remember exactly how it was.
Whether the municipality should become bilingual or something like that, I don’t remember. At least it was something that affected the election. The municipal election. Yes. Don’t remember exactly what it was. So it caused some emotional reactions. Up north.
1: I remember a lot of these things, that they didn’t learn one word, not a single word during all those years at school in the south-east of Norway.
2: No.
1: Like, they didn’t, almost nothing at all. About that culture. So it’s quite clear, that it wasn’t regarded as a very… while the Nynorsk has sort of, I’ve started liking it after a while, but… there are many choices that have been made.
2: M-hm. It says so in the curriculum, something about it, that maybe they should learn how to count, or learn some words, but… it might also disappear a bit. That it won’t…
1: Yes, or maybe it will turn around? Maybe a new optional subject. A culture that really, that may be a very important resource.
2: Yes.
1: Like, not only for the tourist trade, but if there is a lot of knowledge and traditions and language and, and we might see a change there. That would’ve been interesting.
2: It’s like, these tourist posters have always had a good effect, or like..
1: Yeah.
2: ..brochures and stuff. It looks really good, but it has to be more than that. And they are, they get invited to these. Well, the preschool I work in, it’s a Sami preschool close by, so I talk with them.
1: Is this at Tøyen?
2: Yes. So now, I think it was right before the 17th of May, they were going to open a park by Slottsparken, or a statue or something like that. And then the Sami were invited. Showing up in their national costumes, and it looks a bit great, but yeah… yeah.
1: What does that brand mean, that ear tag, did you get any answer..
2: You mean, Suolu? Suolu means peninsula. M-hm. Looked it up in the dictionary (laughing). Yeah, but I don’t know how I can get a confirmation of anything, but it’s just a bit strange.
1: Isn’t there this DNA, that you can trace..
2: Yes, but I haven’t tried that yet…. Yes… but I think, take for instance my mom, I don’t know, but I think it’s really important to her to dissociate herself from the Sami. It’s really important to her. I think it has to do with, with something. But why she had such a bad experience in her childhood, no, I don’t know. I could… her mother, my grandmother, wasn’t really very kind, so that might be an explanation. She has also had a really tough childhood. All of the children were sent to an orphanage because of something, well, family affairs. So… yeah. Lots of different….
1: I think there are so many things one doesn’t know. So much that’s happened, that you don’t hear about. So you, I feel that you know a lot, and have been thinking a lot and reflected, and that requires that you
2: Sit down to, or
1: Yeah, if not interpreting, that you ask yourself, what’s really here, or what’s there, or
2: Yes, I’ve also been really interested in genealogy.
1: Yeah, if you don’t do it, it’s very unlikely that you get to know things if no one tells you directly.
2: Yes. Well, it is… like, they don’t tell you much, just occasionally, it comes in dribs and drabs. Um… there was something. Yes! This was just recently. My mother told me that… that when my grandmother came to, when she married, because the farm belonged to my grandfather, many generations, on that tiny farm out there. That orphan kid and… and then she told me that it wasn’t very popular that she came to town. And I’ve never heard that before. So it’s kind of like. “Ok?” Right. So it wasn’t really, she wasn’t really welcome… but, yeah. It comes in dribs and drabs.
1: Ok, maybe we should stop there?
2: Yeah.
1: Then it’s sort of.
2: Depleted? (laughing) It’s not, though, but.. yeah.
1: But it’s interesting though, I will listen to these interviews, it could be interesting to pick up the thread, and see if we can do some more meetings before we end this.
2: Yeah, because it’s a bit like, I don’t know exactly what you, I read that stuff we got from you the last time. M-hm. About descriptions and… something about reflections in these projects, but this project is, like, I still don’t know how it ends, or what you want to do with it.
1: Neither do I, but I feel that it’s a new chapter maybe, to kind of focus on one by one and hear what people sort of, where they stand. In a conversation or.. But I don’t know. Maybe it won’t be a grand ending, but I think that at least we must find an ending that is kind of… worthy of, like, the time that’s been spent. And that in itself is important. Well, I don’t know. And that’s a problem I face also in other projects, that it’s like: Now I have to talk to the six, and after that we can see if it’s different, or if it’s in any way richer, in like, direction. I’ve been doing it like this for a long time, and you often end up putting off the decision makings until you kind of.. “Njaa..” (Norwegian interjection expressing doubt) or you might think: “Huh, this is interesting.”
2: Have to find some sort of a conclusion to be able to end… that PhD period.
1: Yeah, you’re expected to …explain what you’ve been doing for the past three years, and what you’ve been thinking, and if you’ve made anything or… So that’s kind of helpful.
2: Yes, if you kind of get a deadline.
1: Yeah, I reserved the room next to this one.
2: Oh, ok.
1: I saw there was an exhibition now. Like a presentation. I’ll Have it for at least a couple of weeks. But I don’t know.
2: You don’t know what you’re going to do? It’ll be exciting.
1: Yeah……
2: Can you choose your own examiners?
1: Yes, I’ve suggested someone that I think would be… it would be interesting to hear their feedback. And… yeah. So you can actually do that, or at least come up with suggestions for examiners. But there won’t be an actual exam. First the examiners will look at the work, or listen to what you have to say, and then they’ll just say, “Well, you have to work a bit more with this, or at least this part,” kind of, “we expect you to relate it to,” or something like that, or..
2: Ok.
1: A bit like that.
2: So they kind of just come to..
1: They come once to see the project, the exhibition, and get a text maybe, that I’ve written. Reflection part (?? 01:42:00) And take some time to.. say that it’s faulty or could need some improvements, or we would like you to correct, revise the project description or send it beforehand so that your opinions about (?? 01:42:10) that you said you had, or I don’t know. And it isn’t so, I mean, it’s really open.. (?? 01:42:30) in itself, because it’s art, it’s a bit hard to..
2: Yes, you can’t make any criteria, or evaluation criteria.
1: I guess it’s a bit like, if you’ve really done, if the work is genuine, if they can see that you’ve made an effort and committed to the work, then that will count as positive, or I don’t know. If you have an attitude towards a field that’s in development, artistic development work, or if you’re well oriented or if you have.. Well it’s the qualitative assessments and evaluations that may be decisive, I think.
2: Assessments should be based on your own terms, when it comes to projects like this.
1: Yes.
2: I guess there isn’t just one specific way to assess artistic, creative research.
1: No, and I guess that this in a way can be a bit frustrating, but perhaps that’s where the individuality of art plays a part, and that you can make this into an advantage, rather than letting it become a disadvantage. That you can… can really establish something for the specific assessments. That’s actually an interesting topic. I’ve tried to pay attention to the others, and tried to figure out how they’ve worked with their projects and.. evaluated. But they’re really kind though, or I feel that they are very… well, now one only sees the end, and then they don’t really know what they’ve been through to get there…..
2: Do you know who your examiners will be yet?
1: No, that’s not decided yet, but I think two of them have agreed to do it, and there’s one that still hasn’t come yet. And there are some people from abroad. Or one person that works here, that has agreed to do it. I really haven’t had much contact with her, but I’ve tried to get in touch with her. She’s a bit busy. Doesn’t have much time here. But it’s a good opportunity to… kind of get some focus, in a proper way. Feedback. And a woman that works in Zürich… seen in a conference, that I’ve tried to invite, but that couldn’t. So that’s, I think that when you have these resources, that you can get people to come, and have them look into the work and see it as a beginning, instead of kind of… But to see, “Ok, what’s been going on with your work these last years.” Maybe they could contribute by pointing out things, and putting things in proportion, and see things that maybe I haven’t seen. So I think this could be my aim. Because that competence you get, you’ve kind of gotten it through a job, there’s no associate professor competence that you’re supposed to get, if you finish a PhD. My competence has already been evaluated in connection with job searching. So it’s not like… Healthy to conclude, to finish things up and do that. It will be exciting, I think it will be great to finish this, seeing as I’ve worked here for two years before this. So I’ve been really free and unrestricted the last..
2: It sounds great to do a project like this, or to get a PhD…
1: Yeah, it’s been really.. Also important that one gets employed, and is able to go to the bank and get a home loan, and suddenly, instead of like, rent, many people get established, get a healthier economic situation that one can live with for the next decades. So that’s also a consequence of a certain… So if you talk to many different people, it might be just as much, how shall I put this… if not directly professional, at least indirectly. You sort of create a long term safe work space, if you think like that.
2: Yes, the economy is important. I don’t get how some people can stand living almost on the poverty line all the time. That’s pretty hard. I couldn’t do that, so it’s probably, I need a bit of economic security.
1: There’s so much that’s based on some sort of an economic continuity and security and..
2: M-hm…
1: Ok, but thanks again.